91ɫ��Ƭ

• Six things you need to know about 6G
• ‘Don’t scare the cat!’ Engineers find smarter way to measure quantum systems
• How ‘digital twins’ could help prevent cyber-attacks on the food industry
• Quantum technologies aren’t just the future – they’re already here and making an impact
• Reimagining infrastructure through digital twin modelling

Neil Martin 00:04

Hello, welcome to 91ɫ��Ƭ Engineering the Future podcast. In this episode, we'll answer a big question: How will 6G technology change the way we communicate with each other, as well as the things around us.

Shaghik Atakaramians 00:21

“With 6G we are expected to see immersed holographic communication, high precision localization, and an environment that can see and sense. Today we have these video calls, which are amazing. Now imagine having someone full life size right in the room with you, you will feel the person sitting with you in the room, and you see the gestures and all the movements, you will feel that the person is really with you in that room.”

Neil Martin 00:55

That's 91ɫ��Ƭ Associate Professor Shaghik Atakaramians, a world-renowned expert in sensing and communication, who says new telecommunication systems that can understand and interact with the world around us will transform everything from healthcare to transport and impact how we live, learn, and work. On Engineering the Future, we speak to experts and researchers who are embracing cutting edge ideas and pushing the boundaries of what is truly possible join us as we discover how world changing action starts with fearless thinking on Engineering the Future of Telecommunications
Hello, and welcome to Engineering the Future of Telecommunications. My name is Neil Martin, and I'm a journalist and STEM communicator working in the Faculty of Engineering at 91ɫ��Ƭ. Joining me today to discuss how new and exciting developments in telecommunication are likely to reshape the world we live in is Associate Professor Shaghik Atakaramians from 91ɫ��Ƭ. Shaghik is a globally recognised leader in sensing and communication with deep expertise in terahertz systems, metamaterials, and next generation devices. She is the founder of the Terahertz Innovation Group and is a driving force in both academic and industry-focused research. Thanks for being here, Shaghik.

Shaghik Atakaramians 02:28

Hi Neil. Thanks for having me.

Neil Martin 02:30

So, I guess when people hear the word telecommunications, I suspect they immediately think about their mobile phone and how many bars of reception they get in various places, and how quickly their YouTube videos load for them. They've probably heard of G. It probably shows up on their screen, but can you give me a little bit of context and explain where we are right now with 6G and maybe future gs, and yeah, what we can expect in the future.

Shaghik Atakaramians 03:01

When we say 5G, we simply refer to fifth generation of mobile networks. Each generation comes along every decade, and they bring a major leap forward. With 5G, the leap was speed, capacity, and responsiveness. So, the aim was to connect more devices with low latency, and that's why we see cloud gaming and high-quality video calls.

Neil Martin 03:28

So people are already seeing those benefits from the fifth generation of mobile telecommunications.

Shaghik Atakaramians 03:34

That's correct, and it's not a single signal, 5G, it's a band of frequencies we are using. We have a sub six gigahertz band, which provides wide area coverage and reliability, and we have millimeters band, which delivers extremely high speed and shorter distances. And of course, now we are talking about 6G generation of mobile networks.

Neil Martin 04:00

And what will people expect for that? Is it just a case, like I said, of I've loaded my YouTube video and it's instant now, or what other opportunities does that bring, I guess?

Shaghik Atakaramians 04:09

6G technologies is currently under research and development with deployment being projected for 2030s. And with 6G the plan is more ambitious. It's not just going to be high speed data. We are looking into integrating sensing, localisation, and intelligence. While 6G is about reliable connections, 6G will be a network that will perceive and understand.

Neil Martin 04:39

Is it new technology? How does it actually work differently to 5G?

Shaghik Atakaramians 04:44

It's a new technology. There are fundamental differences between 5G and 6G. One would be speed and capacity. In 5G, we are talking about a few gigabits per second and millisecond latency. While for 6G we are talking about a few terabits per second and sub-millisecond latency, so almost 100 times faster compared to 5G. In terms of the spectrum, the frequency spectrum will be different. 5G covers up to 70 gigahertz, while 6G will be going beyond 70 gigahertz, even 100 gigahertz into sub-terahertz spectrum. In terms of functionality, there will be definitely different, as I said, we currently see cloud gaming, real time videos, and massive IoT systems. With 6G, we are expected to see immersed holographic communication, high precision localisation, and an environment that can see and sense.

Neil Martin 05:48

It all sounds very exciting, and I think we'll dig deeper into a few of those later on in the chat. When you talk about latency, for people who might not understand that term, my understanding is it's just how things kind of work better, they don't buffer, I guess, is what normal person in the street might say. Is that correct?

Shaghik Atakaramians 06:07

Yes. How quickly the system can respond.

Neil Martin 06:09

And so, generally speaking, why do you think it's important for these telecommunication systems to keep improving? We've got 5G now. Why are people looking at 6G?

Shaghik Atakaramians 06:21

So our digital lives keep expanding every year. We stream more and more videos, so the expectation from the networks get higher and higher. Then we have more devices, devices are multiplying, and it's not just smartphones, we are having appliances, connected drones, and other equipment that are using the network. We have new industries forming, and they rely on really fast connections, and I'm talking about autonomous vehicles, for example. With better connectivity, we get innovative. So some ideas come to us and we try to form them because of having those facilities and connectivity and sensing possibilities. And finally resilience and efficiency with every network generation that comes, we are trying to be more efficient and more resilient. So, I guess these are all reasons we are always planning and looking forward to develop the next generation of communication.

Neil Martin 07:24

Yeah, it definitely sounds like there's lots of exciting things happening in the future. I guess going back to maybe what you said about one way communication, I think many people possibly think of telecoms as a pipe where data is flowing, maybe like a pipe in water. Do you think that the networks of the future are the same, or how would you describe them in a kind of different way?

Shaghik Atakaramians 07:48

The pipe model assumes that a network's only job is transmitting data. That's true for 4G and even much of 5G, where the focus is to increase throughput, reduce latency, improve efficiency, and support more devices. But 6G is completely different – it's fundamentally different from 5G. Future networks are being designed to communicate and sense a concept that is known integrated sensing and communication, for short, ISAC. Let me say, explain this in a plain language. Every time a wireless signal travels through the air, it doesn't just carry data, it also reflects off objects from surfaces, and it changes slightly depending on the motion and distance. In the traditional network, we usually filter out those reflections and keep the pure data. They are considered noise, but in the 6G system, we are going to use these reflections to sense the environment. And what can happen with having those information is we can detect movement, we can estimate distance and angle, we can track objects, map indoor spaces, and infer environmental changes. So, we are going to have more perceptive infrastructure in place. The way I see it, the future networks will be consists of layers that they just not only communicate, they also will sense the environment, and they will have the capability for spatial mapping and localisation. And there will be a unique structure-like brain there synthesising, fusing all this information together to make a coherent understanding of the system.

Neil Martin 09:42

What you're describing there sounds to me a little bit like some animals that sense and get sonar reflections back. Do you think that's an accurate way of thinking of things?

Shaghik Atakaramians 09:53

Yes, you're correct, Neil. The closest animal analogy I have in mind, which embodies quietness, sensory fusion, and brain computation is the owl.

Neil Martin 10:04

And I guess owls are pretty good at getting information, sensing even in the dark. I think that's kind of one of their benefits. If we think of future networks like an owl, what does that mean for these new systems over the next 20 or 30 years?

Shaghik Atakaramians 10:23

Let's get deeper into this owl analogy. And owl has an exceptional night vision, has asymmetric ears, and doesn't shout into the environment; it quietly sits on a branch and creates a special map of the surrounding - that's how the future networks will be operating. So let's apply this now to the future networks. We are moving to higher frequencies, millimeter wave, potentially terahertz bands, where the electromagnetic waves become shorter, and having shorter wavelength means we can have higher spatial resolution, finer range estimation, and precise angle detection. And then let's add large antenna array and an advanced signal processing, which replicates the asymmetry of the ears of the owl and also the brain that it's processing the data. Suddenly, the network can localise objects with extraordinary accuracy, so what we are expecting, like in the next I would say 10-20 years, to have networks that are situationally aware and they are adjusting their beam bandwidth and routing based on what happens right now, rather than what was planned an hour or a day ago.

Neil Martin 11:46

It's very amazing to me that, like you said, owls have been doing this for millennium, and we're kind of like catching up, and now thinking, ‘oh, that's a good idea - we should implement some of that’. They just do it naturally.

Shaghik Atakaramians 12:01

There are many ideas like this inspired from nature.

Neil Martin 12:05

Yes, exactly, exactly. And I guess when you talk through those new opportunities, and especially with 6G, what kind of things can we expect to get when these 6G networks are working like an owl?

Shaghik Atakaramians 12:20

Yes, with 5G we get capacity and reliability, and with 6G we are expecting to see more capabilities. So, what does that mean? Maybe terahertz communication moving higher in frequency, and thus getting terabyte per second speed with sub million second latencies and shorter wavelength, which makes estimation and localisation more accurate. And with this speed we can expect to see holographic communications, for example. And also we are going to expect to see AI native networks where the network will predict the congestion and allocate resources and adapt the beam to avoid any delays in the system. We also are expecting to have convergence of the grant networks and space, maybe, that will happen in the next generation.

Neil Martin 13:20

They work separately at the moment, do they?

Shaghik Atakaramians 13:22

They do. And new economic and social systems will come into the place, like with 4G, we have smartphones and app economics. With 6G, you're going to see very new, I would say, systems being in place, which we even can't think of right now.

Neil Martin 13:40

We might try and think of some a little bit later in the chat. I guess, going back to staying on the analogy, but also where you're talking about sensing as well as communicating. What do you think the impact to society will be? How's it going to change people's lives for the better if that network can sense as well as just communicate?

Shaghik Atakaramians 14:03

Over the past decade we have seen how 5G has reshaped our lives. Mobile broadband, platform economics that we discussed, real time connectivity and digitisation of the services. So now looking ahead into the future generation, I'm sure we are going to see a profound impact on our society, because the systems are going to be responsive, predictive, and deeply integrated together. In everyday life, I think we're going to see a dramatic improvement in the safety. Now imagine we will have roads, vehicles communicating with each other at the same time, sensing pedestrians, vehicle speeds, so that will lead into less collisions of vehicles and even accidents with the pedestrians.

Neil Martin 14:59

So we just recorded an episode last week with another academic about the future of cars, and we were obviously talking about automation. I think this shows how things are all integrated in that the automobile industry are probably maybe keen to go to automation, but they need this sensing and this telecommunication systems to make it work properly or safely, as you say.

Shaghik Atakaramians 15:23

Yes. Another area would be our city buildings and cities becoming more smarter and efficient. Now, instead of working on timers, what will happen? They will automatically adjust based on occupancy and environmental condition.

Neil Martin 15:40

Because they're sensing that?

Shaghik Atakaramians 15:41

Because they're sensing that. And other areas could be in education, in health, and which I think we will discuss later on as well.

Neil Martin 15:49

What other specific examples can you think of where being able to sense things in the environment could kind of radically change how we operate things, I guess.

Shaghik Atakaramians 16:03

Let's imagine a word that we are interacting with technology as natural as moving our hands. That's where I think the human and machine interaction will head with 6G. I'm talking about gesture recognition, because moving up in frequency and having shorter wavelengths will be able to localise and sense movements up to a few millimeters.

Neil Martin 16:30

Wow, okay.

Shaghik Atakaramians 16:31

So, well, imagine having touchless keypads where you just move your fingers far away from the keypad and entering the code, for example, or wave to a control panel, and all these can happen, which will give us more cleaner, intuitive, and I would say more accessible possibility of using technology.

Neil Martin 16:55

So you wouldn't necessarily even need to have a physical keypad, because your gesture in midair is being detected and sensed, correct? It's kind of pretty amazing.

Shaghik Atakaramians 17:07

Yes!

Neil Martin 17:10

I find it strange when people talk into thin air when they have their earphones on. I can't quite imagine how it would look if people are just waving their hands in midair and operating a machine, but this is the future, maybe. What other use cases do you think there might be for this sensing technology? You mentioned healthcare before. How do you think it might be implemented there?

Shaghik Atakaramians 17:33

Yes, I think 6G will be transformative for healthcare. Imagine continuously, non-invasively monitoring a patient or a person in hospital or at home, specifically elderlies, and that will happen all remotely. So everyone will receive the care they require without someone being next to them, and even if the vital signs of a patient is being monitored, they will be able to sense changes in your vital signal before you feel the symptoms even. So, in that way we can do preventative care rather than having reactive treatment.

Neil Martin 18:16

I have an elderly mother who lives in the UK. She has a button that she has to press if she has a fall. I think she wears it around her neck. It makes it sound like you're saying that if there's a sensing system in place, a network that would sense if she's fallen over. Would that be a correct assessment?

Shaghik Atakaramians 18:35

Yes, that would be correct assessment, Neil. And imagine that being done without having cameras in the room, and just using the wireless signals in the room. We should be able to detect falls or abnormal movement of the patient.

Neil Martin 18:51

You mentioned holograms before in passing, that really caught my attention. Holograms to me sound super futuristic, the kind of thing that I used to watch on Star Trek many years ago. Can you explain how you think they will be implemented, or how long are we away from having holograms, and how would we use them, do you think?

Shaghik Atakaramians 19:14

Today we have these video calls, which are amazing. Instantly, we can see the person, we can interact - the only thing is we feel the distance. So now imagine having someone full 3D, life-size right in the room with you.

Neil Martin 19:32

I don't know whether I like the sound of that or whether it sounds really scary and freaky.

Shaghik Atakaramians 19:36

For that to happen, we realistically we need really fast networks, and I'm talking about terabyte per second, that means really the next generation communication network, and really moving up in frequency. And also to have the depth and the texture and the color and the lighting being transported with the person in the room, we will also need low latency and sensors that will sense all the movements from this person from their side and can transfer that to your side.

Neil Martin 20:12

And vice versa, I guess, because your hologram potentially is with them at the time as well.

Shaghik Atakaramians 20:17

Yes, exactly. So that means we need a very fast system with low latency and integrated sensors in the system, so which is what we are describing for 6G.

Neil Martin 20:29

And I guess, what do you think the implementation of that? I mean, it's kind of mind blowing to me, in terms of, you know, YouTube video, you'd have the person playing the song right in front of you, potentially, or maybe more practical, you'd have the doctor kind of there. It's a different experience, right?

Shaghik Atakaramians 20:46

Yes, yes. I mean, you will feel the person sitting between the room, and you will see the gestures and all the movements, and you will feel that the person is really with you in that room.

Neil Martin 20:59

I think you also mentioned digital twins. Maybe that's something that people don't know exactly what we mean by that.

Shaghik Atakaramians 21:08

A digital twin is a virtual live virtual system of any physical system. So it could be a car, a machine, a building, a patient's heart - any system that you can build the digital version of it. And with 6G we are talking about real time digital twins, that means you can in real time monitor all these systems and you can predict the changes or for example faults happening in the system.

Neil Martin 21:42

What do you think would be a few big areas of impact if digital twins become commonplace in society?

Shaghik Atakaramians 21:50

I think it would be in the healthcare. Just imagine doctor monitoring the patient in real time; they can even add treatment and see to the digital twin of the patient and see the reactions and assess the reactions happening before administering the drug to the patient as well. It will have a great impact in industry and manufacturing as well. Imagine your production line, if you want to make any changes, you can simulate those changes in real time in digital twins of your manufacturing production line, or even if some fault is going to happen in near future, the system would be able to predict and tell you about the fault in your manufacturing process.

Neil Martin 22:39

Do you think mobile phones will be the same in 20 or 30 years, or is that going to change as well, the actual physical hardware?

Shaghik Atakaramians 22:48

Look, I think we will have something called smartphone in 20-30 years' time, but it wouldn't be as what we have today in our pockets, and currently it's the center of our digital world. I think, in 20-30 years' time, we will have, of course, we currently have even AR glasses, more biometric sensors, wearables, and the phone will be, I would say, blended into that ecosystem rather than being a single device by itself, that you can pull it out of your pocket, make your communication. It will fade into our environment, and automatically that connection will happen. I would say your home, your car will have the information where you are, they'll make the connections, and it will feel that it is part of your environment and space rather than being a single device that you carry with you every day.

Neil Martin 23:50

When we talk at the moment about communications in, in rural areas, let's say, which often isn't as good, one of the things that gets mentioned is the new kind of satellite systems. I think Starlink is the one that maybe people have heard of the most. Do you think they will increase in the future? Will everything be done through satellite communications?

Shaghik Atakaramians 24:15

Satellite systems are impressive, and they do cover areas that the wireless networks, ground networks can cover those areas. I would say they wouldn't replace and be only communication means in the future, but they will work collaboratively with the ground networks to make sure we have consistent coverage everywhere on the Earth. I mean, 5G is built where people live, and it stops at the edges of our cities, it doesn't cover remote areas. While satellite will be covering those remote areas for us, and there is a trade off there, of course. It goes higher above the earth, so the laser will be slightly higher than what we are experiencing with the ground networks, but we get better coverage where we don't have towers, where we don't have 5G signals.

Neil Martin 25:14

Does 6G improve that coverage, or would you still need probably a little bit of satellite, do you think?

Shaghik Atakaramians 25:20

I think we're going to need satellites because 6G would be where we have our antennas currently, and we can't have antennas in the ocean, in the air, for example, or some places it's very expensive to build them. So, definitely the way I see the future communication network will be space and ground integrated together.

Neil Martin 25:47

Going back to maybe a little bit of what we spoke about before, but it sounds to me as if 6G could benefit people who are currently disadvantaged. We talk about maybe people in more remote areas, but you know, I mentioned my elderly mother, maybe lower socio-economic communities. What are the opportunities and the benefits do you think for those less advantaged groups?

Shaghik Atakaramians 26:11

I mean, as we spoke, 6G is going to have a translational impact in the health and education, and I think those are the areas that these people that are living in the disadvantaged area will benefit the most. In terms of healthcare, we are talking about telehealth and telesurgeries, which that means people living in regional area, they don't need any more to go long distances to see a specialist or to have a surgery, and that can happen in the places that they are living. In terms of education, as we said, having remote access to remote classrooms, labs, and even tutors that will help students living in remote areas. And also, what I can see, there will be some economics opportunities as well for people. They will have access to cloud-based jobs, I think, maybe digital freelancing or remote training, which they never had that before, living far away from the cities.

Neil Martin 27:20

I could be living on a lovely desert island and send my hologram into the office.

Shaghik Atakaramians 27:27

And imagine you being here now doing this interview with me from an island.

Neil Martin 27:33

Just to maybe to finish off. We've spoken to a few academics on different podcasts this season about the importance of sovereignty, not to be reliant on other countries to be developing our technologies and using foreign technologies. Do you think that's the same for telecommunications? Why is it important for Australia to create their own networks?

Shaghik Atakaramians 27:59

I believe we have established that when we are talking about 6G, we are not talking just about the speed and high speed communication, we are talking about the backbone of Australia's feature digital capability. So next generation will merge terahertz communication, AI-driven system satellites, and advanced chip into one critical infrastructure for us, and it will support everything from health care, education, all the way to defense and emergency responses. So that's why having sovereign capability will be critical for Australia, and it needs to shape its 6G technologies. And the risk of not having that will be depending on the systems that were developed in other countries and be vulnerable to supply chain disruptions and less able to protect our sensitive national data. So yes, we need our own powerful owl as a strong homegrown network of ecosystems that reflect our strengths and our needs.

Neil Martin 29:15

I think a native owl in Australia is called the powerful owl, that sounds pretty apt for what you're describing. We need in Australia in the future, so when we talk about this homegrown powerful owl system, who do you think it is that needs to be involved in driving that forward?

Shaghik Atakaramians 29:34

I think Neil, it wouldn't be just one institution, it will be collaborative work, which involves universities who will be driving innovation and will be at forefront of the cutting edge research. It would be industry that will be helping with translation of that technology. It will be the government who sets the national strategies and regulates. That ensures the trust and the safety of the network in other regions, like Europe, Japan, U.S., they are all investing in this race, and I think it would be also timely for us to make sure we are in this race with all other countries together, rather than being at the sideline and watching the race. So an Australian owl network is ultimately about independence, resilience, and securing Australia's digital future.

Neil Martin 30:33

I think there's lots of things to look forward to, and my brain has kind of been blown in this conversation, thinking about the different ways that we're going to live our life and the impacts that everything that you've described is going to have. Associate Professor Shaghik Atakaramians, it's been a pleasure to chat with you.

Shaghik Atakaramians 30:51

Pleasure is mine, Neil.

Neil Martin 30:53

Unfortunately, that's all we've got time for right now. Thank you for listening. I've been Neil Martin, and I hope you join me again soon for the next episode of our Engineering the Future series.

Outro 31:05

You've been listening to 91ɫ��Ƭ Engineering the Future podcast, highlighting the people and ideas creating real-world impact and enabling progress for all. Don't forget to subscribe to stay updated on upcoming episodes. Check out our show notes for details on in-person events, panel discussions, and more fascinating insights into the future of engineering.